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User	Toxic_Rayne | 2006-06-09 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Oh, ok, sorry, mae, I got confused, lol... *tox*

User	Lost Sheep | 2006-06-09 |
Subject	untitled
Message	"You know, Steve, that’s just silly. That even ignores anatomy. Even if Adam and Eve had obeyed God and not eaten the fruit, they were still made the way they were made - for sex! What churches do you know of (since you say ’a lot’) that teach that? mae" I couldn’t agree more Mae, it’s completely ridiculous! Teachings of this sort started with Tertullian and were expanded by Augustine in a slightly different track. Unificationists teach this today as well as most faiths descended from early American Puritans. It was a widely held Catholic dogma, as well, although not sanctioned by the church. Steve

User	mae | 2006-06-09 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Steve - On the other hand, there are a lot of Christian churches that teach exactly what Tox said. They point out that there were no children until after Adam and Eve ate the fruit. You know, Steve, that’s just silly. That even ignores anatomy. Even if Adam and Eve had obeyed God and not eaten the fruit, they were still made the way they were made - for sex! What churches do you know of (since you say ’a lot’) that teach that? mae

User	mae | 2006-06-09 |
Subject	untitled
Message	I’m not going to criticize you, Tox, but you do need to read the last couple of posts again. MOSES was NOT called righteous and blameless, NOAH WAS. To say in the Bible that someone was ’righteous’ and ’blameless’ does not mean that they were sinless. It means that they wholeheartedly loved and strived to obey God. As far as ’mortal’ sin, well, that’s a Catholic concept. I’m not Catholic, so I can’t address that directly - and frankly, I don’t know exactly what you mean. mae

User	Toxic_Rayne | 2006-06-08 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Okay...hold on and try not to critisize me when I say this, but, like you said, the bible says moses was righteous and blameless...but doesn’t that go against mortal sin? Everybody sins... *tox*

User	mae | 2006-06-07 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Toxic, Moses came hundreds of years after the flood. It does not make sense to assume that there was no way for people in Noah’s time to know they were doing wrong. It says that Noah was righteous and blameless and found favor in God’s sight. How did he come to be righteous? Is he the only one who knew the ’rules’? Why would he be? It makes more sense to assume that at least a general moral code was known, but that most of mankind (as many as there were then) chose to ignore it - very similar to today, except that there are a LOT more people now. mae

User	supergirl_in_oh | 2006-06-06 |
Subject	untitled
Message	somebody fill me in

User	Toxic_Rayne | 2006-06-06 |
Subject	untitled
Message	yeah...true...I see what you mean about the whole...being married by god as your priest thing... And...I think Moses, unless I’m thinking of someone else or didn’t read through the section correctly, was the only one who warned anybody...with the plagues and all...but that’s just me. *tox*

User	mae | 2006-06-06 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Then I suppose it’s just to put the death sentence on those who kill as well... That’s a discussion for another thread. mae

User	mae | 2006-06-06 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Well, Tox, since God spoke directly to Noah and Noah was a ’righteous’ man, then I’m pretty sure God did speak to the people through one means or another. He probably used Noah and other men like him to warn the people of the consequences of their actions - and they apparently ignored those men. As far as Adam and Eve not being married - surely you’re not serious, Tox. The Bible says that Eve was made FOR Adam and FROM Adam. God made them for each other, specifically. How can you be any more married than being made especially for each other by God himself? mae

User	Toxic_Rayne | 2006-06-05 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Then I suppose it’s just to put the death sentence on those who kill as well... I get where you two have a view point that since they were running around naked and all, but in a way, Adam and Eve were not married, and if they did have sex, it would be a sin according to the bible...but...if sex was a sin, then they would not have done it if they didn’t eat the forbidden fruit...the forbidden fruit gave them that knowledge...but that’s just me...I do see where you two are coming from though, and it does make sense.... I’m glad someone agrees that drowning the world is violent, thanks for that Mae...I guess I would suspect God to help them by maybe talking to them in some way, cuz the ten comandments didn’t even exist then...I dunno, I just thought he’d do something to change their minds. *tox*

User	mae | 2006-06-05 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Toxic said: To me, killing people who do wrong is unloving, he could have helped those people, but he didn’t. Mae - That’s an interesting viewpoint, Tox, that it is unloving to kill the wicked. I would call it ’just’. And how would you have proposed God ’help’ them? I’m sure he told them there would be serious consequences for their behavior if they didn’t change their ways. Yet, they continued in their defiance of God. And yes, I would call drowning the world violent. That’s why I said violence begets violence. mae

User	Lost Sheep | 2006-06-04 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Mae: "Oh my goodness, Tox! I’m absolutely, 100% sure they would have figured out that one without any help at all, running around naked and all" I couldn’t agree with you more on this one, Mae. LOL On the other hand, there are a lot of Christian churches that teach exactly what Tox said. They point out that there were no children until after Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Interestingly, in a much earlier version of the Genesis story, the Sumerian God Enki took the form of a serpent in "Edin" and convinced the woman to partake of "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". This version of the myth is more specific that the knowledge included both sexuality and that it it "bad" to be naked. Steve

User	mae | 2006-06-04 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Tox---I think he did know...I think maybe he knew that everything could not be or stay perfect...for one thing when he created the world, he said he would create mankind to multiply and all of that...but if Adam and Eve never ate the forbidden fruit, they would never have known how to "multiply". Mae - Oh my goodness, Tox! I’m absolutely, 100% sure they would have figured out that one without any help at all, running around naked and all. Oh dear me! 8>) giggle!

User	kanu | 2006-05-30 |
Subject	untitled
Message	The very first basic principle of spiritual life is that we are not the body - just like if you eneter a car and drive away you don’t actually become the car - you just drive it - so if you walk out of a car after an accident unscathed and jump in another car what is the problem? "Just as the embodied soul continuously passes in this body from childhood to youth to old age, the spirit soul similarly accepts another body at the point of death - a sober person should not be bewildered by such a change" BG 2:12 "Just as a person puts on new garments giving up the old ones, the spirit soul accepts new material bodies giving up the old and useless ones" "One who is born is sure to die and after death one is sure to take birth again. Therefore in the unavoidable discharge of your duties you should not lament" "The soul cannot be cut to pieces by any weapon nor burned by fire, moistened by water or withered by the wind" "The soul is unborn primeval and ever existing - it is not slain when the body is slain" :Never was there a time when I did not exist nor you nor all this kings - and in the future none of us will cease to be" Anyway I could go on with more but if you think that someone is their body you will not be able to understand a grain of god’s actions in this world - death is simply about relocation and not extinction

User	| 2006-05-30 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Toxic - They say our god is a loving god. Really? That’s why he flooded the world! and destroyed cities. Yay, so loving! Mae - The passage says that the whole world, with the exception of Noah and his family, had become wickd and violent. God regretted that he’d ever created the world. Then, just as now, there were consequences for our actions. Violence begets violence. The part that got me the most there, Mae, was the violence begets violence part...is flooded the world and destroying cities not violent to you? God could have helped them, not killed them. To me, killing people who do wrong is unloving, he could have helped those people, but he didn’t. How do you find a spiritual guidance cousellor...all I have is my regular counsellor...should I ask her for her own opinions on religion? Chell- I definitely believe what Jesus says, not religion...sometimes I think religion warped what jesus said to a slight extent. now to answer your questions as from what I believe...I’m preparing for some disagreement here, lol... ......................................................................... If God knows everything from begining to end: Chell----Why did He put the tree with the forbidden fruit on Earth- He must have known that Eve would eat it and mankind would fall? Tox---I think he did know...I think maybe he knew that everything could not be or stay perfect...for one thing when he created the world, he said he would create mankind to multiply and all of that...but if Adam and Eve never ate the forbidden fruit, they would never have known how to "multiply". Chell---If He knew mankind was going to fall, why was so He grieved when they finally did that he decided to send a flood? Tox---That’s one thing that I can’t answer and that I don’t understand...I thought it a bit rach to kill people who could have changed their ways. Besides, everything that was then seems to have become now... Chell---If God rained down the plagues, and parted the sea , why didn’t He make it so that Moses wasn’t slow of speach and tongue? Tox----while one is gifted with the ability of speach, another is gifted with the ability to explain what has been said...I think it works something like that. Chell---When he picked the Jews as his chosen people, did he know that they’d be involved in the death of his most-begotten, and if so was that why they were his chosen? Tox---good question, lol...um, I think that he chose them as his chosen people simply for the fact that they were chosen to put Jesus to death in order to open the gates of heavewn, something like that. Chell---Are the Jew’s still God’s chosen, or did He change His mind and pick Christians instead? Tox---I think we are all his chosen people, otherwise we would not be here. *tox*

User	kanu | 2006-05-30 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Because we have a very small miserly scope in conditioned life it is very difficult for us to understand god - generally we are unhappy when things don’t go our way - as if we have a better idea how to run the universe

User	kanu | 2006-05-29 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Actually god doesn’t change - the material creation is the same old story - it comes and goes like the seasons - you have to understand that god has a completely seperate completely non dysfunctional abode that he resides in with his pure devotees (and it is way bigger than this small material universe) - god has an eternal form of happiness and knowledge, as does all living entities when they manage to shrug off their addictions to material ignorance - what to speak of god changing - even the living entity doesn’t change - that is the whole principle of suffering in the material world - we ar e in an atmosphere of change and that causes us unlimited problems

User	Chell | 2006-05-29 |
Subject	untitled
Message	I have a few questions... If God knows everything from begining to end: Why did He put the tree with the forbidden fruit on Earth- He must have known that Eve would eat it and mankind would fall? If He knew mankind was going to fall, why was so He grieved when they finally did that he decided to send a flood? If God rained down the plagues, and parted the sea , why didn’t He make it so that Moses wasn’t slow of speach and tongue? When he picked the Jews as his chosen people, did he know that they’d be involved in the death of his most-begotten, and if so was that why they were his chosen? Are the Jew’s still God’s chosen, or did He change His mind and pick Christians instead? - - - - - - - - It seems that God changes quite a bit in the Bible. In the Old Testament He was quick to judge and quick to send judgements: He kicked Adam and Eve out for eating the fruit- which he knew they’d do. He drowned the earth because people had become evil (Why didn’t he send Jesus back then? Had he not thought of it yet? And if not, then he can’t know everything from beginning to end...) He turned Lot’s wife into salt for looking over her shoulder. He burned down to towns because they had become evil. He asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, knowing that Abraham would obey. He was not a nice God, but then Jesus came and He’s now a loving, kind, just God that loves us and wants us to make it back to him... But God never changes. - - - - - - - - - - - Toxic, if you would like another opinion, I’d suggest grabbing a Bible, reading all the passages that quote Christ. Read only his words, listen to what they tell you, and decide if you can believe what Jesus, not religion, said. Just a thought, but once I dumped the religious side of my spirituality, I found it much easier to accept that God can change, that God does change, and that he is now a kind, loving, and just God because Jesus can tell Him what hell human beings have to go through while stuck on this earth. Jesus has already died for Everyone’s sins, we all get to ’make it’ if we can accept his "word" and, quite simply, his ’word’ is love. Keep looking, keep questioning, keep reading. God gave you that brain and your inquisitive nature for a reason. Use it or lose it babe!

User	mae | 2006-05-29 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Toxic, you have some things really tangled up. It seems you’ve heard something here, read something else there and somehow put them together and come up with something altogether different than either of the previous two things. Toxic - They say that if pray or worship to idols or figures, we are commiting sin. Okay get this, we pray to the rosary, statues of jesus and pictures of god. W e also bow our heads and get on our knees to a fancy marble coffee table called an alter. Mae - Toxic, an idol is a figure of some sort made by man that IS the god and is itself worshipped, not just a statue or picture representing the object of worship. Toxic - Then the bible says we should pray in a quiet place and to ourselves. But we pray to a preist and in front of an entire congregation of church memebers. Supposedly prayer is supposed to be sacred and something to be kept to yourself, but the church doesn’t think so. Mae - Toxic, you need to read the whole passage, preferably in a study Bible, and read any footnotes with it. The passage compares two men praying, one who is humble and contrite for his sins, the other who is arrogant and prideful and is praying loud and long for the sole purpose of being heard - and admired for his piety - by others. It does not condemn corporate prayer (congregational prayer). When it tells you to quietly pray (go into your closet and pray, I think is the way the King James puts it), what it means is to pray honestly, with a contrite heart, not for show. Toxic - They also say Jesus died for our sins so that we may be forgiven, but we still go to hell. I’ve already stated my opinions about that, I’m not repeating them. Mae - Again, Toxic, you either haven’t read the whole thing or you haven’t been listening carefully enough. IF we accept Jesus as our Savior and follow him, we spend eternity with him in heaven, we will NOT go to hell. REPEAT - WE WILL NOT GO TO HELL. Hell is reserved for those who have turned away from Christ as their savior. Toxic - They say our god is a loving god. Really? That’s why he flooded the world! and destroyed cities. Yay, so loving! Mae - The passage says that the whole world, with the exception of Noah and his family, had become wickd and violent. God regretted that he’d ever created the world. Then, just as now, there were consequences for our actions. Violence begets violence. Toxic - Why should we confess our sins to a priest? What if he himself cannot forgive ourt sins? Are we really forgiven then? Mae - It is not a requirement that you confess to a priest. The Catholic church has had that tradition, but I think even they are changing somewhat. Jesus Christ is the one who forgives sins. Even a priest will tell you that. The Bible says Jesus is faithful to forgive. If he says he will, he will. Toxic - They scandalize anyone who believes in reancarnation, yet jesus was reancarnated into the holy spirit. Mae - Jesus was not ’reincarnated’ into anybody or anything. He was RESURRECTED as Jesus - just as he died as Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the third aspect of the Holy Trinity: The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. He has existed as long as God has (always), just as Jesus has. The Holy Spirit was sent to us after Christ ascended to be our comforter and counselor. Jesus still exists - he sits on the throne at the right hand of God. Tox, I strongly urge you - I implore you! - to find a spiritual counselor that you trust and feel comfortable with. I don’t know if getting things straight in your mind will change your opinions on spiritual things, but if you decide to turn away from God and Christ, then I want you to really know what you’re turning away from. It saddens me tremendously to think that you might be turning your back on heaven because you had a wrong understanding of something Biblical. mae