|| Replies ||

User	Toxic_Rayne | 2007-11-14 |
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Message	SUPERGIRL!!!!!!!! *tox*

User	supergirl_in_oh | 2007-11-13 |
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Message	haha tox you are back in buisness andyway i know there is something just i don’t wanna name it god like try shane or sarah or somethin else just not god

User	Toxic_Rayne | 2007-11-12 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Okay, I think there is a god, even if he is god-god, Allah, or whatever how many "only one god"s are out there. I think there are other places that you can find spirituality other than religion and as long as you truly believe in that, you’re okay. I don’t have time to list all of my personal opinions on religion, but if you want to see them they are posted on a blog on my myspace.... until next time... *tox*

User	Ronswords | 2007-10-26 |
Subject	Hi
Message	I second that emotion Or should I say 3rd LOL God Bless Ron

User	mae | 2007-10-26 |
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Message	I’m not going to post on this thread anymore- I hate clicking on the Fuck "god".. shall we let this be it’s dying post? I agree. It galls me each day to click on that. Ugh. mae

User	Chell | 2007-10-26 |
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Message	Swwwweeeeeeet!! It’s a good day. I’m not going to post on this thread anymore- I hate clicking on the Fuck "god".. shall we let this be it’s dying post?

User	joeyalphabet | 2007-10-26 |
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Message	now everybody, let’s have a group hug! (((((((((((HUG!)))))))))))))

User	mae | 2007-10-26 |
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Message	I have to admit something- it’s not mostly your fault, I KNEW IT!!!! (Just teasing! 8>) You are forgiven and we are okay. mae

User	Ronswords | 2007-10-25 |
Subject	Hi
Message	Please allow me to also Apologize if I have offended anyone Chell I have been very hard on you at times and for that I apologize You are extremely knowledgable about the bible and that I strongly respect I guess its just my own sadness that carries me in my comments to you because I can see you have been truly blessed by God with a Beautiful life and family but yet you still seem to turn from his Love Call me selfish if you want to Chell but that is so sad How I wish you could see how much you truly have been Blessed by God Mae you are a very kind Hearted Person who is also extremely knowledgable of the Bible And I Think you understand what I mean when I speak about Chell You both have been very Helpful in Helping me examine my own Life and my own relationship with God and for that I Thank You Blue Monk there is so much I can learn from you I Thank You immensly for your kind words and sharing your knowledge with all of us Again it was never my wish to hurt anyone by my words Only to try and Help them better understand how truly blessed by Gods Love they Truly are God Bless Ron

User	Blue Monk | 2007-10-25 |
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Message	A collective sigh of relief passes almost visibly through the collective. Now if we could only edit somewhat the title of this topic, or at least let it slowly float to the bottom and ultimately away through disuse. Perhaps a substitute/new topic would serve?

User	Chell | 2007-10-25 |
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Message	Of course I forgive you. I have no right to hold onto upset if I want ask for the same forgiveness for myself for all the mistakes I make every day. I have to admit something- it’s not mostly your fault, and I need to ask you to forgive me for pushing the way I have. (I wasn’t sure how else to illuminate my point.) I still maintain that our actions can have a total and complete impact on the Gift of Salvation- not our own, but the Salvation of others. My biggest argument (with most Christians I’ve met) has been that they often come across as to non-believers as teaching Jesus’ message of love to sinners from some moral high ground. This, in my opinion, is the most damaging way to try to teach the message that- while we’re all sinners, all lost, all hoping to be saved, there is a way to avoid be punishments for the multitude of sins we commit daily- as long as we don’t judge, don’t forget to love, remember to forgive each other their sins, and we ask for our own sins to be forgiven. When a non-believer feels they are being talked down to, or judged by believers, it becomes almost impossible for that person to avoid hardening their hearts (like the Pharaoh), to see the “evidence of salvation” that shows through so clearly when we lean on the Lord (let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds..), to “hear” the message of Love (for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.), or to accept it and be saved- because even the most pious believer is a sinner and non-believers are aware of that fact. I feel horrible about having pushed you, having used sarcasm, having talked in circles, and hope you and the others on this site will forgive my actions. Not that it makes a difference, but they were done with the best of intentions. I almost walked away from my personal belief in Jesus’ message because of the way that most religious adherents and doctrines stand on an "I’m right, you’re wrong", "With us or against" us mentality that completely shuts down (at least for me) the ability to connect and communicate with those who need to hear it. I left religion because I believe we’re all in the same sinking boat and couldn’t swallow the self-aggrandizing stance of the majority (not all- by any means) of those with whom I’ve attended church. Mae, I believe it doesn’t matter how you find Jesus as long as you find him. I think any person who tries to teach His message is a person who shows they have a sense of ethics, charity, brotherhood, and morality. My only argument with organized religion is that Some of them teach doctrines- not taught by Jesus- that when followed by believers, can make it extremely hard to get the message across. But, I still love you…are we ok?

User	mae | 2007-10-25 |
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Message	Chell, I’m going to say something here that’s very hard for me. It’s not sarcastic nor tongue-in-cheek. I want to apologize to you. Sincerely. The Bible says that no one is righteous, NOT EVEN ONE. That means me, too. I’ve been answering you with my own words, not seeking God’s guidance in my answers. That was foolish and I have asked for God’s forgiveness for not seeking his counsel. Now I must apologize to you and to those who have read these posts. I fear my words have damaged the cause of Christ and that just cannot be. I am so sorry for any hurt I’ve caused with my words and I beg your (all of you) forgiveness. mae

User	Chell | 2007-10-25 |
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Message	I am sorry for making you feel judged. It is obvious that you have taken offense to my stated observations about those you claim as ’with you’. When I was speaking of ’Christians’- at least the couple thousand I’ve met- not showing evidence of their salvation I didn’t mean you in specific. Everyone can see that you’re posts have always been full of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Thank you. I, on the other hand, need to ask forgiveness. I have refused to look at myself, am a hypocrite, lack respect, speak in circles, change views and stick to a schedule. I refuse to listen. I am manipulative with people’s words. And I am disingenuous. Thank you for judging my actions and pointing out my crimes. I will try harder tomorrow to be a better person. We all have our short-comings- mine are just longer than others. To be fair, though, I’ve always maintained I’m a repeat offender when it comes to falling short- I can’t seem to get through a single day without doing something ‘wrong’. If the sacrifice was ever needed by a soul- move over Paul… I think, after these debates with you, I have finally solidified my decision on whether I should go back and give Christianity another shot. Thank you. “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) I guess we’ll be going our separate ways now. I’m sure you will keep calling yourself a Christian while following the teachings of Paul, his buddy Luke, your Bible Scholars, Theologians, and your Church approved doctrines. I’ll continue to warn people know I’m a non-Christian sinner who tries her hardest (and fails miserably daily) to follow only Christ’s teachings. And we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I’m not a good enough person to express my beliefs and my concerns over others behaviors without sounding judgmental. One last thing before I go. When I said, “I think they[believers] are more responsible for showing love to others than those who haven’t come to believe that ALL sins are forgiven by Jesus.”… I wasn’t saying that they ARE SHOWING more responsibility in getting out there - I was saying they have a greater responsibility (“ARE more responsible’) FOR SHOWING love to others and that I don’t see that responsibility being lived up to. Wanted to clear that up- not that it matters..

User	mae | 2007-10-25 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Christianity is not a requirement for having a sense of ethics, charity, brotherhood or morality, nor does calling oneself a Christian automatically impart same. To believe it so one would be truly lost. That is absolutely true, Blue. But being a believer or a disciple of Christ should lend itself to those virtues. mae

User	mae | 2007-10-25 |
Subject	untitled
Message	that I believe that our actions have bearing on our salvation- a statement you claim too…so what’s the problem? Nope. That’s not what I claim. I said that our good works are evidence of our salvation. They do not have a bearing on it, meaning they do not influence it. Only evidence. I read your post and simply shook my head. You’re still doing it, Chell: refusing to look at yourself and turning the discussion back to me and other believers. I’ve asked you several times to examine your statements and see how they fit with the life of love you say you live and you just won’t do it. We all know how you feel about me and other believers - you have little regard for us, our churches and our beliefs. But can you take an honest, eyes-open look at yourself and your actions? This has become a circular discussion - you and me going round and round, doing no good for either of us or anyone else reading. I’ve answered all your questions half a dozen times before. My answers haven’t changed. You are right on schedule, though. First you start by changing words that I say into something that more closely supports your view of me; then you change your statements ( But I honestly can’t remember the last time I saw one of the faithful on “Vaseline Ally”... I really can’t remember the last time I saw someone of faith on visitation day at the Jail house- I have worked for the Salvation Army, Goodwill, the Red Cross, the Animal Shelter, and the YWCA and meet more non-faithful working in those jobs than the faithful. //I think they[Christians] are more responsible for showing love to others than those who haven’t come to believe that ALL sins are forgiven by Jesus.” ) and now you’re being disingenuous, as if you don’t understand what has been said over and over or giving an unusual interpretation to a statement. I am not going to try to convince you of my viewpoint by abandoning the words of Paul because you have chosen to interpret them in a way that is 180 degrees opposed to any theologian or Bible scholar I have ever heard. This is absurd. If I thought it would work, then I might consider it. But I’ve been through this enough with you to know that it won’t. Besides, even if I just use the words of Christ, though you say you follow those, when I quote them, you argue with them and me. There is simply no way I can do anything at all that is okay with you. You accuse me of snapping at you, then have to admit that I didn’t, but now I’m cold and without emotion, especially love. First too hot, then too cold. Same words. If you want to say that Christians, believers, people of faith, whatever, are judgemental and unloving, then I say take the plank out of your own eye, Chell. mae

User	Blue Monk | 2007-10-24 |
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Message	I have seen more non-believers helping show the love than believers - Chell This could be a factor of just having been more often in the company of non-believers than believers. Depending upon what’s happening at the time, this could be termed as mission work in the field where it’s needed most, or it could be what I term "building a testimony". I have spent much time in the latter, and not enough in the former. Christianity is not a requirement for having a sense of ethics, charity, brotherhood or morality, nor does calling oneself a Christian automatically impart same. To believe it so one would be truly lost.

User	Chell | 2007-10-24 |
Subject	untitled
Message	"I have expressed my belief and have said that I disagree with a works-based salvation.” -mae I have also expressed my belief and have said that I believe that our actions have bearing on our salvation- a statement you claim too…so what’s the problem? You have stated that how we act has absolutely no bearing on whether we are saved, yet in the same post state that our turning from the message (an action) can cost us our salvation. How do you explain the contradiction in your statements? And how does your message differ from mine on this issue? Anytime Anyone commits sin- from greatest sin to the least- they are actively turning from the message. Which means that the most important thing in the whole of the message is to not alienate those who need to hear it (everyone). If your actions make them unwilling to hearing the message; who will carry the weight of those sins- the one who couldn’t hear the message because of the believer’s actions or the believer whose actions blocked the message? You have stated emphatically that “The atonement completes the law - fulfills it - so that the punishments no longer apply.” but still haven’t answer my question about your stance on Capitol punishment as a punishment for a crime(sin). I know you are against abortion, and I assume would have no problem with doctors being thrown in jail for their sins. You say your religion doesn’t ostracize homosexuals… so you ARE supportive of gay couples having the same rights afforded them after performing a government-recognized ‘coupling’ ritual (marriage, civil union, life-partnering, etc...) as all the other coupled ‘sinners’ in the country? “Yet now you are upset.” Not upset- confused, hurt, sad…. Upset carries an undercurrent of anger- and I’m not angry at you; just trying to understand you. “Chell - I think they[Christians] are more responsible for showing love to others than those who haven’t come to believe that ALL sins are forgiven by Jesus.” “Well, you see, Chell, this is just opposite of what you’ve said before. You’ve told me that you see many more non-believers helping others than you do people of faith.” mae I have seen more non-believers helping show the love than believers. I’ve said I think Believers should be the examples in showing His love. Where do those two statements conflict? (I see more non-believers showing love to others than believers- and that I think believers should be outnumbering non-believers if they are the ones under a requirement to Love.) How is that opposite? “I haven’t snapped at anyone. My comments have been calm, considered and without emotion.”-mae Ok, I’ll accept that- but, ‘without emotion’ means there’s no love. And all my questions have focused on asking how you show love to those you disagree with… like me? “Is there any large group of people (Christians, Muslims, teen-agers) who should be judged by their extremist fringe? I don’t think so.” -mae Me neither- can we talk our Christian president into ceasing the killing of Muslims now? Can we stop judging those in the homosexual group as being unworthy of having the secular rights believers have because some of them are flamboyant? Can we start working on eliminating the need for abortion instead of alienating and punishing the group who finds themselves un-wantingly pregnant and the group who loves them enough to keep them from coat-hanging both lives to death? Couldn’t the Christians I’ve met keep smiling and talking to me when they find out I am spiritual instead of religious? Just rambling here… “Mark 9:39, 40 "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us." The rest of the story: Mark 9: 38-41 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.” So, the only people who are not “with Jesus” are those who do something miraculous through Jesus’ name and then in the next moment say something bad about Jesus, right? If I see someone perform a miracle in Jesus’ name one minute and say something bad about Jesus in the next, I’ll know they are not with Jesus- thanks for the heads-up!! I’m not sure how that applies to non-believers though … When you said whoever is not against us is for us, I thought you were insinuation that those who didn’t claim Jesus as the Savior were against you. I see now it’s only those who use His name to perform miracles and then slam Him right after. So, non-believer are with you too- seeing as they don’t call on Jesus’ name to perform miracles…right? “Chell - You put me down repeatedly, tell me I don’t really understand Christ or his sacrifice, refuse to answer my questions, and yet, when I ask you to look at your actions, you get upset and tell me to look to my own… I don’t remember ever telling you that you don’t understand Christ or his sacrifice.” I’m not upset. My answers have been calm, considered, and with the hope of eliminating disagreement so we can be more loving to each other. I took your action of disagreeing with me about whether actions can or can not endanger your salvation as the same as telling me I don’t understand Christ or his sacrifice. I could have sworn you were the one who told me that in order to get to know Christ and understand his sacrifice that I had to fall back on the interpretations of Scholars and theologians and not my own heart, might, mind, or strength. But, hey, if you weren’t doing that, and it was a misunderstanding on my part, then it’s all good now. “What questions have I refused to answer?” -mae I’m still hoping you’ll answer these: Why do you think Christians are told they are judgmental? Why do you think remonstration is acceptable Love-affirming behavior if you believe all sins have been paid for and the punishments no longer apply? How can you believe that actions have no effect of salvation if you say our actions (turning from the message) can cost us our salvation? I will make sure that I will focus any disagreements regarding doctrines(dogmas) to you specifically, instead of speaking in generalities. It will help me if you explain –with only Jesus’ words’- what your beliefs are, and that they come from Jesus. If the support comes from Jesus and those who actually knew him, I may be swayed to believe differently. If it comes from Paul, his friend Luke, or any leaders from any religion that grew from their Jesus-conflicting doctrines; I’ll need you to understand that Paul holds no place in my heart. He has spoken in direct conflict with Jesus too many times (after using Jesus’ name to perform miracles) for this lost soul to believe he is “for us”. Are we good now?

User	mae | 2007-10-24 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Chell - you have come down on me harder than anyone else about my belief in Jesus’ atonement and our salvation. You belittle my beliefs at every turn. Chell, I have expressed my belief and have said that I disagree with a works-based salvation. How have I belittled your beliefs at every turn? My comments were in response to your telling someone that you aren’t going to my heaven. This is what you said in an earlier post: Chell - I’m sure it’s uncomfortable to be asked to explain yourself, it would be for me too- but I don’t’ dislike you for questioning my beliefs- Yet now you are upset. Chell - I think they[Christians] are more responsible for showing love to others than those who haven’t come to believe that ALL sins are forgiven by Jesus. Well, you see, Chell, this is just opposite of what you’ve said before. You’ve told me that you see many more non-believers helping others than you do people of faith. Chell-Do you feel comfortable/justified snapping at other believers because they judge Christians on their support of the extremists and radicals who make the news? I haven’t snapped at anyone. My comments have been calm, considered and without emotion. Is there any large group of people (Christians, Muslims, teen-agers) who should be judged by their extremist fringe? I don’t think so. The ones that make the news are those who are out of the norm. That’s just the way of the media. As far as saying you make your judgements on the basis of the ’majority’ of Christians’ actions, I take issue with that. First of all, you don’t know the majority of Christians, haven’t spoken to the majority of Christians to know their beliefs and haven’t seen the majority of Christians with signs in their hands or standing outside abortion clinics. You have heard from and seen a few. Chell - attack my character… Attack your character? Because I deduce that you aren’t inclined toward introspection? How is that attacking your character? Chell - What he said was: "He who is not with me is against me, ...(Matthew 12: 30-32) Mark 9:39, 40 "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us." Chell - You put me down repeatedly, tell me I don’t really understand Christ or his sacrifice, refuse to answer my questions, and yet, when I ask you to look at your actions, you get upset and tell me to look to my own… Well, I’ve never put you down. As a matter of fact, I’ve commented on how intelligent and well-organized your comments are and the fact that it is clear you love your family immensely. I don’t remember ever telling you that you don’t understand Christ or his sacrifice. I’m not upset about anything. And why is it wrong that you should look at your own actions? For some reason, it is apparently all right that you tell me to look at mine, but that you shouldn’t have to examine your own? What questions have I refused to answer? Chell - Mae, do you assume I hate ALL Christians? I don’t. I don’t hate ANY Christians I believe, Chell, that I used the word ’blame’ not ’hate.’ You do blame Christians, indiscriminately, for all sorts of things - at least that’s the way it has sounded in many, many past posts. If you want to address something I said, then perhaps it would be good to use the same words I used. mae

User	Chell | 2007-10-24 |
Subject	untitled
Message	“You’re not much given to introspection, are you, Chell? You adamantly refuse to look at your own actions, continually turning the question around. My opinion is that you paint with a very broad brush.” -mae This is how you show your love for me? You put me down and claiming I’M judgmental and refuse to look at my actions? Have I not asked you to forgive my sin of pointing out how your statements hurt my, and others’ feelings? “I don’t hate anyone, not a single soul. Not homosexuals, unwed mothers, people in or out of organized religion. Yet you color me and all Christians the same as the few radicals or extremists that make the news.” -mae I don’t hate anyone either. I still love you Mae, and you have come down on me harder than anyone else about my belief in Jesus’ atonement and our salvation. You belittle my beliefs at every turn. You come across as though I’m against you. If those radicals and extremists are ‘with you’ while they act so atrociously why is it so hard to show you love and support me? “I don’t blame the ordinary folk in the first two, do you? Why do you blame all people of faith in the last? Why do their unloving actions make it all right for you to respond in that manner?” Mae, do you assume I hate ALL Christians? I don’t. I don’t hate ANY Christians I think they are more responsible for showing love to others than those who haven’t come to believe that ALL sins are forgiven by Jesus. I guess I feel that Christians, who have experienced Jesus’ love and have learned to love, should be able to show they love the sinner in a way that makes the sinner feel loved. Do you feel comfortable/justified snapping at other believers because they judge Christians on their support of the extremists and radicals who make the news? How are people supposed to avoid the conclusion that the majority of Christians don’t agree with those extremists’ behaviors when we don’t see the ordinary Christians speaking out against the extremist Christians? “We disagree on our religious beliefs, but neither I nor they feel the need to bash each other or act unloving toward the other.” -mae So, why do you come after me? Why do you hold to doctrine that would cause you to disagree with someone you believe is “on your side”? I talk about my beliefs and you attack my character…it’s a bit off-putting and makes it harder to hold onto my love for you. Patience is not be strongest virtue, and you test it just as strongly as 99% of the Christians I have met. “Barring homosexuals from hearing the message? I’m sure there are churches that do that sort of thing, but I don’t know of any. Mine certainly doesn’t. Yet you would have people believe that all Christians are ready to plant lavendar burning crosses in a homosexual’s front yard.” -mae That is fantastic to hear! It’s nice to know that there are still some religions that support sinners regardless of which sins they commit. When people use generalities in speaking of a specific group, it’s usually based on the actions of the majority of the people in the specific group. Every group has stereotypes that are stereotypes because the majority act in the same manner. When I say Christians I don’t mean every single one of them- I speak of them in general, in majority. “The only time I knock on someone’s door with a religious activity in mind, is to drop off a Thanksgiving basket or pick someone up to take them to Bible Study. If I find myself involved in a discussion of religious beliefs, I do not tell someone they’re going to hell. I DO tell them about Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for us. I DO tell them that the Bible says He is the only way to heaven. I tell them what I believe, not attack their beliefs. If they want to get into an argument about it, I take my leave. My job is only to tell them about Jesus.” -mae Me too, me neither, me too, me too, you’ve attacked my beliefs and my character, you’re still here arguing with me, I agree. “You know, in one post you talk about following the words of Christ and ask me if I’ve ever read them. Then, when I give you some of his words, you want to argue with me about them. They’re pretty plain and straightforward, Chell. Like I said before, if you want to argue about them, you should take it up with Christ. He said them.”-mae What he said was: "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” (Matthew 12: 30-32) Do you think striking out against people like me- someone on your side- who has NEVER spoken against the Holy Spirit- helps gather people to the word, or scatter them from it? “In his command to love, Christ did not condition it to say love them if they love you first. The inexcusable actions of some Christians do not relieve you of the responsibility to love them. I simply ask you to look at your own actions and speech toward people of faith and see if they honestly fit the definition of ’love’ that you keep telling us you live by.” You put me down repeatedly, tell me I don’t really understand Christ or his sacrifice, refuse to answer my questions, and yet, when I ask you to look at your actions, you get upset and tell me to look to my own… Just so you know, I love those who blow up abortion clinics, who beat homosexuals, who berate those seeking abortions, who strive to force the population into worship through enacting laws. I love these misguided people, I cry for them as well as those they have scattered. But, I HATE the concepts/dogma/doctrines they have been fed that could lead them to believe that kind of behavior is not only not evil, but justly sanctioned. I’m shaking the dust off my sandals- i can not win with you- and I’ve tried. So I can now stop trying to help with a clean consciousness.

User	mae | 2007-10-24 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Forgive me Mae.. Youre’ feelings have been hurt. It probably doesn’t matter, but I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic. Sorry, Chell. I missed this before. No problem. My feelings were not hurt. mae