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User	mae | 2007-07-04 |
Subject	untitled
Message	http://www.eagleton.rutgers.edu/e-gov/e-politicalarchive-2000.htm Sorry ’bout that, HK. This explains it very well, including elucidating Blue Monk’s statements. mae

User	Blue Monk | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Actually, Florida stopped the recount when it became increasingly clear that Bush actually had won the popular vote for that State hands down. Was anyone surprised that the dems tried to supress the incoming military vote knowing they greatly favored Bush? Yet the lies continue. Say what you will, there’s alot to be said for a benevolent dictatorship or monarchy. The well used phrase goes, "The KINGDOM of Heaven is like...", not the "Democracy" AKA the tyrany of the majority. The current status of the U.S.A.? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_House_Divided

User	H_K | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	The Bush administration released a directive on May 9, 2007, called the National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive. The directive declares that in the event of a “Catastrophic Emergency” the President will be entrusted with leading the activities to ensure constitutional government. This directive will, in effect, make the President a dictator in the case of such an emergency. Look it up- http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html Scary stuff when you factor in the relaxing of restriction on summer travel into and out of the US and the recent attacks in London and Scotland. How are those letters coming?

User	H_K | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	I am not seeing the link to the website you mentioned… I was not offended by any of your comments. In order to be offended I have to take offense, and I do not make a habit of allowing myself to be offended by other people’s opinions. Florida law states that the benchmark for winning an election is through determining the intent of the voters by the way they vote. In contrast, Chief Justice Rehnquist, Justice Scalia, and Justice Thomas stated in their decision on George W. Bush, et al., v. Albert Gore, Jr., et al. that “in a Presidential election the clearly expressed intent of the legislature must prevail.” Florida Legislature had no clear laws regarding the handling and counting of hanging chads, and seeing as their constitution makes it illegal to adjust laws to deal with an issue that has come up during that election after that election has taken place; it was left to nine people to decide who became the president- regardless of the intent of the voters. In all reality, in the 2000 election, only nine votes decided who won the Presidency of the United States. Gore won the most votes in Florida. He took the most votes in the whole of the U.S. and he lost. How is that Democracy?

User	joeyalphabet | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	i definitely prefer fasicsm - it’s a heck of a lot easier

User	mae | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	If the United States Supreme court has jurisdiction over all the minor courts, why is abortion illegal in South Dakota? HK Every state is free to pass its own laws on any issue. Until those laws are tested before the U.S. Supreme Court and declared unconstitutional, they will stand. mae

User	mae | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	In a debate I do not have to post a dissenting opinion. I never stated an opinion. I posted the characteristic of a fascist regime and asked the readers here to voice in on what they see. - HK No, you certainly don’t. And no you didn’t, until your last line of your following post. I apologize if my comments offended you. I was, actually, addressing the points made. Here is a website which explains the particulars of the dispute and the Supreme Court’s decisions. mae

User	H_K | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Florida Constitutional Statute 201.166 1.) If …unofficial returns…indicates that a candidate for any office was defeated or eliminated by one-quarter of a percent or less of the votes cast for such office…the board responsible for certifying the results of the vote on such race SHALL ORDER A MANUAL RECOUNT OF THE OVERVOTES AND UNDERVOTES cast in the entire geographic jurisdiction of such office or ballot measure. The U.S. Supreme Court overrode a State Supreme Court that was acting within full compliance of its State Constitution. If the recount, which the Florida State Constitution clearly states is left to Florida to deal with then the outcome of the 2000 election is not in question. Gore took the most vote, therefore he won the electoral votes from Florida, therefore he won the election. If the United States Supreme court has jurisdiction over all the minor courts, why is abortion illegal in South Dakota? In a debate I do not have to post a dissenting opinion. I never stated an opinion. I posted the characteristic of a fascist regime and asked the readers here to voice in on what they see. You have done that, and I’ve thanked you for your opinion.

User	mae | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	I know several people agreeing with these 14 characteristics of a fascism. To us ignorant, non-patriotic, non-hippie surviving people this seems to make sense, or at least on the verge of some reasonable definition of our times today. - rogue Rogue, I know that I could find just as many who agree with my points. So what? Are you ignorant? Are you non-patriotic? And I have no idea what non-hippie surviving means. I didn’t call you or anyone else any of those things or even imply that you were. Can we please just discuss the points raised? mae

User	mae | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	rogue, this is a debate forum, not a mutual admiration society. I enjoy debating with people - people who use thought and reason to state their opinions rather than sarcasm and personal attacks. I very much enjoy debating HK for those very reasons. Am I selective in my responses? Probably, but then so is everyone else, including you. If you are not, then I expect to see an in-depth response to every single one of MY points. My opinions are usually opposing- that what constitutes a debate. If you find my opinions annoying then the simplest thing to do is stop reading them, and especially stop responding to them. I try very hard to keep personal attacks out of my responses. I probably don’t always accomplish that goal, but I do try. I will argue with your opinion, your hypotheses, your premise, but I try not to denigrate the writer, except in humor on occasion- which, admittedly, is not always viewed as humorous. Compared to the stuff that’s been dumped on me, my posts are like love letters. I do recognize, however, that that’s not an excuse for personal attacks. I’m very sorry you find me annoying. Perhaps you need to step back a bit to look at the big picture. You’ll probably never have to meet me or deal with me in person. I am an unimportant part of your day. I really matter to nothing in your life. Maybe if you look at it like that I won’t seem so annoying. mae

User	rouge wave | 2007-07-03 |
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Message	"HK, since you posted without stating a dissenting opinion, I assumed you agreed with it. It appears I was right." (Mae) Mae, you’re annoying. So annoying I can’t stop reading you, but not because I think you’re right, because I know you’re always going to have another opinion (often the opposing opinion). We have secret prisons, warrentless wire tapping, and we torture people. Tell me we don’t, Mae, or then tell me how that’s suppose to be in a democracy and doesn’t constitute as infringement of Human Rights. (You selectively choose the scope of the things people say utilizing all the details/words as fodder for your attacks/replies.) - Democracy: - government by the people; especially : rule of the majority - a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections - the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority The SOURCE of political authority(!). Constituent: - one who authorizes another to act as agent - a structural unit of a definable syntactic, semantic, or phonological category that consists of one or more linguistic elements (as words, morphemes, or features) and that can occur as a component of a larger construction Corporation: - a group of merchants or traders united in a trade guild - the municipal authorities of a town or city (or country?) - an association of employers and employees in a basic industry or of members of a profession organized as an organ of political representation in a corporative state ...united in a trade guild. Ever see "Why We Fight"? - We have a controlled mass media. (Fox) - HBO had a special on how the 2004 elections could have been rigged - they aired it on the day of the mid term elections in November, 2006. - "Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts"... I know Ken Robinson agrees with this, and he seems like a brilliant man. - "Obsession with Crime and Punishment"... I don’t know the definition or line where obsession is drawn, but I think any government would like to keep crime rates down. I would also suspect that most masses (am I fascist?) would rally together if they didn’t like something (the killing of that one guy not too long ago, Tim something maybe?). "10. Labor Power is Suppressed -- Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely or are severely suppressed... And this applies to the U.S. how, exactly?" (Mae) ^ They just recently raised minimum wage here in Ohio, after 15 years of no one touching it. I don’t know the whole deal with unions though, never was in one, don’t know how they function, but I know a lot of employers don’t like them for some reason. I know several people agreeing with these 14 characteristics of a fascism. To us ignorant, non-patriotic, non-hippie surviving people this seems to make sense, or at least on the verge of some reasonable definition of our times today.

User	mae | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	the Constitution of Florida (who, according to the constitution of the US) states that in the event of a close election, the Florida Supreme Court has jurisdiction- and if they can not resolve the issue themselves, the election dispute goes before CONGRESS. HK HK, I can’t find this in the Florida Constitution. Can you please give me the citation? Also, you must keep in mind that the election itself was never in contention nor even the results of it. What the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on was an appeal to the Florida Supreme Court’s decision requiring a recount. This is proper procedure: a higher court ruling on an appeal of a lower court’s decision. The U.S. Supreme Court has jurisdiction over every court in the land. mae

User	mae | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Mae, I am not saying any of this myself. (Did you not note the link?) I’m a tech geek, not a political scientist. For me, (and others who see the States as I do) if it looks like fascism, smells like fascism, tastes and moves like fascism, it must be democracy. H.K. HK, since you posted without stating a dissenting opinion, I assumed you agreed with it. It appears I was right. mae

User	H_K | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Mae, I am not saying any of this myself. (Did you not note the link?) I’m a tech geek, not a political scientist. These characteristics were put together by Dr. Lawrence Britt after studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. About the Supreme Court giving the Election to George Bush- are you aware that the Constitution of Florida (who, according to the constitution of the US) states that in the event of a close election, the Florida Supreme Court has jurisdiction- and if they can not resolve the issue themselves, the election dispute goes before CONGRESS. The US Supreme Court has/had NO jurisdiction in the way Florida (or any other state) decides to run its election. (States HAVE to be able to run their own elections without outside interference otherwise we’re in a democracy decided by only 9 votes.) Thanks for offering your opinion on the good Dr.’s observations regarding the shared characteristics of fascism. For me, (and others who see the States as I do) if it looks like fascism, smells like fascism, tastes and moves like fascism, it must be democracy.

User	mae | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Well, then we’ve always been fascist. 1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -- Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. About 20 years ago, we had a group of German basketball players who were touring this country stay with us. One of them told my teen-aged daughter (then) that he thought Americans’ blatant patriotism was funny. In Germany you never saw flags or patriotic displays and certainly not fireworks on some special "national" day. But then, Germany was still hiding its face in shame. 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -- Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." You’re saying our government is ignoring "human rights" because of security? What "human rights?" Are you referring to the rights of Americans bestowed by our Constitution? Those aren’t human rights - they’re American rights. Human rights are those of life, freedom, adequate food, housing, etc. Things that are necessary to live. It is - and always has been - dependent on the will of those governing to bestow such rights as freedom of speech, religion, assembly, etc. While we in the U.S. and other Western countries are used to having those rights, most of the world does not. 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -- The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. I see. It is only a "perception" of danger when we see and hear someone say they are going to destroy the United States. And it is only a perceived threat when we hear the words "Death to America" over and over. And, of course, we’re all so frenzied about it here that the same person who posted this thread has complained that we’re doing nothing. That certainly makes sense. (Sarcasm noted, unashamedly.) 4. Supremacy of the Military -- Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. We do not have compulsory military service in the United States. Our current military certainly appears to be underfunded when they don’t have adequate equipment and materiel. You think our military is glamorized? It’s really rather hard to do that when you have ’embedded’ journalists broadcasting the goriest of scenes. Unless, of course, you personally think that is glamorous. 5. Rampant Sexism -- The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and antigay legislation and national policy. This is really stretching. Our country accepts, even encourages, active debate on all manner of subjects close to the human heart. We are open about our disagreements. To call this fascism shows how desperate you are to push your own agenda. 6. Controlled Mass Media -- Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or through sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in wartime, is very common. ROFL. 7. Obsession with National Security -- Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. Have you been watching the news at all lately? Have you seen the anti-war protests? And what’s with using the term "masses." That, in itself, is a term that has been used by fascists - not in a democracy. Americans don’t tend to react with fear, rather with anger and determination. 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -- Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions. This is another stretch. My observation has been that fascist governments tend to REPLACE religion with the government. 9. Corporate Power is Protected -- The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. Ever heard of ’nationalization?’ Corporations flee from fascist countries. No. 9 misses the mark again. 10. Labor Power is Suppressed -- Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely or are severely suppressed. And this applies to the U.S. how, exactly? 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -- Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses, and even forego civil liberties, in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations. Again, this applies how? 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -- Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions, and who use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. Show me a government - anywhere - where the leaders of a country, by the time they’ve become the leaders, don’t all know each other and use the various talents and attributes of each other to help govern. 14. Fraudulent Elections -- Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against (or even the assassination of) opposition candidates, the use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and the manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. Anti-Bush people like to say that the election was stolen or was fraudulent, but the fact is that the Supreme Court - composed of jurists NOT appointed by President Bush - used the existing laws of our land in making their determination in the 2000 election. There were no ’campaigns’, no riots, no military coups, nothing but nine aging, black-robed judges looking at the massive and conflicting evidence and making a judgment call. That election was not a sham; you just didn’t like the result. Your points are filled with the words "may", "often", "almost", "not uncommon". These are giveaways that data and opinions are being massaged for the singular ends of the writer. mae

User	alteredlife | 2007-07-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Democratic fascism. Isn’t it funny (not really) how most of this applies to America? I think it does. Reading your little forum blurb made me realize just a tiny bit more (even though I’ve read all of this already, it’s nice to get it all on one page). I’m sure people will disagree with what I think (it’s only to be expected). 1, 2 ,3, 4, 7, 9, 13 and especially 14 is what America has become under a puppet Bush regime. Scary stuff.