|| Replies ||

User	Blue Monk | 2008-01-04 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Actually adults are punished, it’s just that many fail to realize the repercussions of such behavior until perhaps later, perhaps never. But you could say the same thing about substance addiction as well as such "lack of substance" addiction.

User	machine dream | 2008-01-04 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Well, back on topic then. "The Principal claims that ’sprinkles’ is a racist term that is derogatory to African-Americans and that my child needs to be punished for using the term. " Should children be punished for expressing racist believes? And if so, should adults be punished for expressing racist believes? And if this isn’t the case for adults (first amendment after all), does this imply that children are intentionally indoctrinated?

User	Blue Monk | 2008-01-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Dare I say that this discussion goes beyond the pale? But enough about me, what about this? http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-&p=chimps%20mental%20math&type= Perhaps one should not denegrate chimps so easily?

User	machine dream | 2008-01-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Well, one possible explanation is that you have an IQ around 85 and hence do not notice any intellectual differences. Another option is that humans subconsciously discriminate and classify Africans around the African mean, and Europeans around the European mean. People tend to classify the intelligence of dogs for example relatively to intelligence of the average dog they’re exposed though. Even the most intelligent dog is still an intellectual retard when compared to humans. Another option is that you know your friends from college or another educational study that tends to select for above average IQ. I’ve heard rumors however that certain immigrant groups from Africa do quite well in higher education. This could be a brain drain, as it’s often called, when the most intelligent portion of a population is most likely to (successfully) immigrate.

User	cabbalistic | 2008-01-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	’Didn’t you already state that your friends weren’t black? With black people generally means African American because you can’t say Negro anymore for whatever reason.’ No. I stated my friends were black but weren’t African AMERICAN. They were British, Sudanese, Somalian and Nigerian. One was Kenyan too. Most black people aren’t American...

User	machine dream | 2008-01-03 |
Subject	untitled
Message	"Do you honestly believe that one test (the IQ test) is the best way to evaluate intelligence" IQ tests are quite good and as it is they’re definitely the best available option to measure intelligence. They’re not as good as a possible future DNA test that measures potential intellect. It goes without saying that a chimp will never be capable of human intelligence, no matter how much education you throw at it. I won’t deny that education and environment aren’t important, but all evidence shows that you need the hardware (good brains) to do something productive with it. "I refuse to believe that only the white race can reach intellectual heights." I have no idea what you mean with that statement. To put it another way, 16% of the US black population out performs 50% of the white population on IQ tests. Even if the IQ scores represent genetic differences it’s obvious that blacks are in the same league as whites, it would however make current policies and expectations unrealistic. "Its a human failing to try to make yourself look better by making others look bad. You’ve never seen this in your life’s experiences?" Certainly, but in my experience most people don’t display this pathological behavior, and I don’t think it’s relevant to this debate. Of course you can name a trait, announce it to be despicable, and try to label someone with it. I’m not exactly sure what the point would be, but I’ve observed this pathological behavior in some people as well.

User	Blue Monk | 2008-01-02 |
Subject	untitled
Message	"Group averages say little about individuals" - MD Very well said, a corollary to that possibly being that an "average" individual person cannot actually be derived utilizing only group averages. A following corollary to that would say that such an "average" individual (who doesn’t exist) of one group cannot be compared in any way to an "average" indivicual (who also doesn’t exist) of another group, unless it is to say that there is actually nothing to compare. But we already knew that.

User	latentlylyrical | 2008-01-02 |
Subject	untitled
Message	To machine dream... Do you honestly believe that one test (the IQ test) is the best way to evaluate intelligence (or the potential for intellectual growth)? I dont care how many statistics you can refer to, I refuse to believe that only the white race can reach intellectual heights. And to the point of it being ignorant to say that some people raise themselves up by tearing others down... its pure fact, and not ignorance. There is evidence of that behavior in every human culture that is or has ever been. Its a human failing to try to make yourself look better by making others look bad. You’ve never seen this in your life’s experiences?

User	Blue Monk | 2008-01-02 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Ah, but Blue knows upon where he occupies the curve in question, and actually cares very little about the thoughts of mortals.

User	machine dream | 2008-01-02 |
Subject	untitled
Message	"Perhaps that some people feel that by denigrating others they somehow manage to elevate themselves?" Group averages say little about individuals, so at best you denigrate yourself (not the race you belong to) by saying something this ignorant.

User	Blue Monk | 2008-01-02 |
Subject	untitled
Message	"If you had to boil all your posts down into a statement of point, what would it be?" -Mae Perhaps that some people feel that by denigrating others they somehow manage to elevate themselves?

User	machine dream | 2008-01-02 |
Subject	untitled
Message	"I suppose I could look up the same things you looked up to find the answers to my questions - if they’re there - but you’ve already done the looking up (and besides, I don’t care. ) Did you check these things, guys? Honest question - no sarcasm intended. " Naturally I did. Poor whites score better than rich blacks, to address one of your questions. Regarding test bias, the tests are biased toward increasing the black IQ since the substantial poorest element of black society is generally excluded from the research. Keep in mind that researchers, despite what some people assume, do not want to find racial differences in IQ so the gap may very well be larger than 15 points. "Are the test-takers in all the races comparable in education, age, and economic level" Education and economic status already groups people by IQ, but even if grouped in this manner the gap, though less big, persists. Keep in mind that education doesn’t increase IQ, just that people with a high IQ are more likely to get a college degree. "it’s almost impossible (if not completely so) to make an IQ test that doesn’t have a cultural bias and still compares apples to apples." The raven matrices test is culture independent, and shows a bigger racial IQ gap than tests with cultural bias. http://iqtest.dk/main.swf "If you had to boil all your posts down into a statement of point, what would it be? What is the point of all these long esoteric discussions?" Despite the strong push of racial equality over the past 50 years little has changed except that whites seem systematically discriminated against by affirmative action, hate laws, indoctrination, and unfair treatment like Chell’s son was the victim of. If racial differences are a social construct there might be some justification for this, but I obviously don’t think this is the case. "Wouldn’t an average of 85 mean that my black friends should have come across as consistently dull? In conversation, games, or academics? ANYTHING? " Didn’t you already state that your friends weren’t black? With black people generally means African American because you can’t say Negro anymore for whatever reason. You’d notice a difference in academics, but if you’re in college or in a wealthy county the really poor performing people/students, regardless of race, have already been weeded out. Conversation isn’t really a good way to determine intelligence. Democrats see Republicans and dumb, and visa versa, which just goes to show that IQ has little to do with it. The main reason you notice that someone is a moron in a conversation is because they tend to have a poor emotional development and have poor social skills.

User	cabbalistic | 2008-01-02 |
Subject	untitled
Message	http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1DF1E3AF933A25757C0A96E948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1 An alternate explanation for the IQ discrepancy..

User	cabbalistic | 2008-01-02 |
Subject	untitled
Message	’As far as one race scoring higher on IQ tests AS A RACE, well, it’s almost impossible’ I agree. I mean, between my white and black friends there’s never been any indication of such a wide discrepancy in intelligence. There should have been SOME sign pointing to it. Just based on personal experience, the idea of such a discrepancy being valid seems ... stupid. Wouldn’t an average of 85 mean that my black friends should have come across as consistently dull? In conversation, games, or academics? ANYTHING?

User	mae | 2008-01-02 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Hey, guys, I’ve been following your discussion and it’s all very intelligent-sounding (boring but intelligent) and I’m afraid I’m at a loss as to what your point is. Anybody who has done any kind of research at all knows that statistics can be manipulated to make almost any point you want. There’s always a study lurking somewhere to support your statement. As far as one race scoring higher on IQ tests AS A RACE, well, it’s almost impossible (if not completely so) to make an IQ test that doesn’t have a cultural bias and still compares apples to apples. Besides, outside of academia and perhaps research-oriented pursuits, of what use is a measurement of strictly intelligence? Without adding in the social and emotional levels, it means nothing. You guys seem to be focusing entirely on the forest - the big picture - and missing the individual trees that make up the forest. I would ask machine dream, in your comments on the persistently lower scores of races other than Caucasian or Oriental, does your research indicate who took these tests? Are they given to 2 year olds and then again to 10 year olds and then again to 20 year olds? Are they given to people from the projects or from more affluent neighborhoods? Or both? Were the people who took them professionals or did they flip burgers at McDonald’s? In other words, how do you evaluate the data sample? Are the test-takers in all the races comparable in education, age, and economic level, as well as their social and emotional environments and maturity levels? Do these tests take into consideration the education input from parents? All other factors being equal (which of course, they never are) if one child’s parent reads to him and the other does not, the one who is read to will have a higher IQ than the other. I suppose I could look up the same things you looked up to find the answers to my questions - if they’re there - but you’ve already done the looking up (and besides, I don’t care. ) Did you check these things, guys? Honest question - no sarcasm intended. If you had to boil all your posts down into a statement of point, what would it be? What is the point of all these long esoteric discussions? mae

User	Blue Monk | 2008-01-02 |
Subject	untitled
Message	"Children of a European and African parent have IQs below the white average, 7 points in the Minnesota study." - MD Once again, percentiles as forced into position on a curve do not translate between other curves using a different data set into actual "averages" which are comparable to anything, particularly a large data set against a small one. Such curves are a forced linear expression of a given set of data. Test score data itself has the potential to be very non-linear, particularly so as the set gets smaller where each point becomes more relevant - for better or for worse. Each data set is integrated, even if the test takers are not. Seven points difference with E/A to fifteen points A/A? I think we need to compare the I.Q. scores of white europeans against white americans against mixed black/white on either continent to try to find where those apparent lost eight points reside. But that’s almost as ridiculous as the rest of this arguement.

User	Blue Monk | 2008-01-02 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Bearing and proliferating genetic diseases for the sake of "ethnic purity" is not a sign of intelligence.

User	Blue Monk | 2008-01-01 |
Subject	untitled
Message	I suppose it would be a faux paux to mention that African Americans manage to dominate both college and professional sports in spite of being a minority? Perhaps they have an unfair "genetic" advantage? But then it’s very difficult to hold on to racist agendas when the goal of your business is to win games and thus make beau coup money by using the very best players you can find regardless of what they happen to look like. So, check out the lineups... And now we have a "hybrid" Black/White Barack Obama running a very good race for President of the U.S.? Maybe Tiger Woods (Black/Asian) should tell him it’s hopeless! Meanwhile, I’ll hold out for a date with Halle Berry and not worry too much about her own gene pool or I.Q. score either one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halle_Berry Why do you suppose it is instinctive that young women should be attracted to strangers? In my own opinion, a family reunion is still not the best place to cruise for possible mates.

User	machine dream | 2008-01-01 |
Subject	untitled
Message	"If anything, expanding the gene pool is beneficial." Change for the sake of change has never been a good argument in my opinion. "Note the genetic problems which occur among "blue-bloods" and the apparently superior qualities which often develop in mixed race children." Jews are a better example of a racial group where genetic diseases are common, though not a significant burden. As it stands humans are just fine by avoiding 1st and 2nd cousin marriages. Regarding hybrid vigor, there’s no scientific evidence that I know off that race mixing yields superior offspring. Children of a European and African parent have IQs below the white average, 7 points in the Minnesota study.

User	Blue Monk | 2008-01-01 |
Subject	untitled
Message	"the random white child living next door will be closer to her genetically than her own child." - MD One should not confuse outward appearences with DNA markers, but considering the state of inbreeding in many neighborhoods, your statement could be correct, however, inbreeding and staying within limited gene pools does cause problems. If anything, expanding the gene pool is beneficial. Note the genetic problems which occur among "blue-bloods" and the apparently superior qualities which often develop in mixed race children. There is often a need for "fresh blood". In reading various material associated with this debate, it was noted that while the isolated, small data base curve for "black" Americans appears lower that the general, large data base curve for "white" Americans it still fares better than the curve for black Africians. It should be pointed out that the "white" data base includes a collective representing many gene pools, the "American black" one a slightly smaller one, and the African black one possibly the most isolated but I really don’t have the figures, that is merely speculation. One can draw his own conclusions.