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User	GoKart Mozart | 2008-03-09 |
Subject	Ugh
Message	Ron: No one said all. There is no doubt that there are many people on Welfare who actually DO need it. Chill out. and Mae: Those were not incomlpete thoughts, Especially the welfare one. That was in response to something and was all that needed to be said. And as for the other, i would suppose you would have to hear me SAY that in order to understand that it in itself is a complete statement. Although i can certainly see how it can be viewed as not so.

User	mae | 2008-03-09 |
Subject	untitled
Message	It would be an interesting bit of research to see if the perception of abuse of the welfare system is an accurate perception or if it is exaggerated. mae

User	Blue Monk | 2008-03-09 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Even without checking the facts, I can comfortable with stating that the majority of U.S. citizens who receive welfare checks are not "black", however, it is unfortunate that there are a high percentage of "blacks" who are currently in poverty. There would be very few people of any worthwhile character who begrudge the fact that some people are in need of support in any number of areas and that we as a civilized society elect to help them however we can. There is a perception, however, that this system is being abused somewhat, and this is what is often latched onto while decrying the faults thereof.

User	Ronswords | 2008-03-08 |
Subject	Hi
Message	How the nheck mdid this topic turnto welfare Let me tell you allsomething My mom was disabled growing up and she by herself raised 3 children to adulthood The biggest reasonIam alive and as well as my 2 sisters and my Mother herself is the Welfare system She couldnt work and let me tell you without those benefits wewouldnt be here today Dont make a stupid statement that all people on welfare dont deserve it because it simply isnt true God Blessthe US Government for caring enough to help those who cant help themselves And just so you guys know a lot of Homeless people out there have a Mental illness MENTAL ILLNESS IS A DEBILATATING ILLNESS THAT CAN AND A LOT OF TIMES DOES DISABLE A PERSON TO THE POINT WHERE THEY CANT PHYSICALLY WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These people in my opinion despertely need Welfare and the Governments help to survive GOD BLESS THE USA God Bless Ron

User	mae | 2008-03-08 |
Subject	untitled
Message	And I addressed my comment to Blue when it should have been to GoKart. Sorry ’bout that. mae

User	mae | 2008-03-08 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Welfare: I would not say most, but i would say quite a few. Well now that we’ve agreed that individuals each have their own situations and should not be grouped by race, ethnicity, religion, gender, age, what-have you.... GoKart, you have two incomplete thoughts here. Care to finish them? mae

User	GoKart Mozart | 2008-03-06 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Welfare: I would not say most, but i would say quite a few. Well now that we’ve agreed that individuals each have their own situations and should not be grouped by race, ethnicity, religion, gender, age, what-have you....and by the way i refuse to recognize the term "race" as it is often used. Our "race" is "human".....it has nothing to do with the color of our skin.

User	mae | 2008-03-05 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Well, Blue, you certainly turned MY point on its head. My point was that there is no ALL of any group that can do something. Somebody a few posts back, I don’t remember who, said something like if blacks would all just get up and help themselves they’d be more successful (VERY broad paraphrase - I didn’t look it up and I don’t remember it exactly). If all blacks could be successful doing that, then so could all whites and vice versa. But no ALL is ever successful or unsuccessful. We are all individuals, black and white, pink with purple polka dots, whatever. In my view, that’s how we should look at everyone - not painted with the broad brush of race or class, but as individuals. I don’t like welfare any more than you do, but I’m not prepared to say that most of those who partake of its benefits could manage without it if they’d just get up and help themselves. I think that’s just too simplistic an answer. mae

User	GoKart Mozart | 2008-03-05 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Ahh, a point of mine has been made. And proven...not the word i was searching for but i believe it will suffice... Mae: "If all blacks can do something, then why can’t all whites do something?" Indeed, that is my point. Not "ALL," but at least the majority. If most of the less-than-priveleged individuals out there would stop trying to rely on the "Pity me" card and actually try to do something themselves, be they black, white, hispanic, asian or what-have-you, We would not have such a problem. Welfare in its current stage, however, is allowing those that rely upon it to become lazy. Hopefully this whole "Welfare Reform" deal will catch on and be successful...But at any rate, there is ALWAYS something. It may not be something the individual wants to do (like say, working at McDonald’s...?) But hey, you’ve got to start somewhere.

User	mae | 2008-02-29 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Mae, while I do agree with what you have to say, think about how much worse they’d be if they weren’t allowed to stay in America after slavery was abolished. Insephered, I never said otherwise. Actually, I’m not sure they’d have been worse off back THEN, but they definitely would now. Who knows, if their communities had been allowed to advance into the current modern times without the upheaval of slavery, maybe Africa would be a more stable place. We have no way of knowing. And all I’m saying is that the issue is much more complex than just saying "I’m saying that all of them can bring themselves out of the ’underclass’ (as Joey calls it) if they just try. " First of all, "all of them" can never do anything. Some of them could, that is true. But blacks are individuals within a community, just like whites are. If all blacks can do something, then why can’t all whites do something? Why can’t all whites be as rich as Bill Gates? It’s a ridiculous idea, just as much for blacks as whites. Then on top of that is the very real discrimination faced by many blacks, especially young men, in the United States. Then there is the state of the black family: fatherless children mothered by children, living on welfare. Now, that’s a generalization, I grant you, but it’s true for a large portion of the black community. That’s a hard heritage to overcome. Whatever the societal reason for all these issues, they are REAL issues. It’s a complex situation not easily fixed and certainly not by just telling people to get up and do something. mae

User	mae | 2008-02-29 |
Subject	untitled
Message	I forgot, I think bringing Barak Obama into the discussion is valid. I agree with Blue. I think - I hope - that with his growing prominence, perhaps election to the Presidency, attitudes will change in the black community and also toward the black community. I’m so afraid some white supremacist will be so offended by him that they’ll try to assassinate him. mae

User	mae | 2008-02-29 |
Subject	untitled
Message	GoKart, you seem to have a very black or white (pardon the pun) way of looking at things. I find that life is rarely that crystal clear. Of course, the blacks didn’t achieve "freedom" themselves. They were SLAVES. What, exactly, does that have to do with anything? Does that lessen what the slaves went through? Apologize to whom? That’s a falsely ignorant question and rather disingenuous. GoKart - The only reason that being successful or what-have-you would be considered "turning their back on their heritage" is by those who are Jealous of said successful individual. If being successful is "turning your back on your heritage," then why would you want to go by that? Why would you want to be destined to be Unsuccessful? That seems to be a rather undesireable life if you ask me... mae - The reason may very well be jealousy - but I don’t think so. I think, rather, that it’s a rejection of everything that whites represent. What do you mean "why would you want to go by that?" I don’t understand that question. And whether you or I or any other white person thinks that is an undesireable way to live is not really the point. If you think it is, then I don’t think you’re trying to understand the mindset of a large segment of our society. And that is racist. mae

User	GoKart Mozart | 2008-02-29 |
Subject	Mae
Message	Indeed, as Soul has clarified, I was referring to the fact that our ancestors were USING theirs as slaves, as maids and cooks and what-not, to do things for them. Again, i am going to point out that the "blacks" did NOT gain the equality that they have TODAY-and yes, today they DO have just as much equality as anyone else-they did not gain this by themselves. where were plenty of "whites" to fight for their rights right alongside them. Had i lived in that time, i would have been one of those whites. And i agree with Joey and Soul on the apology issue (Apologize to whom?). There are plenty of blacks that have "recovered" from the history of the ancestors ( ~.^ ? ) And are successful and all that good stuff. There’s no reason for the rest of them to not be in the same situation aside from individuals morals, goals, and laziness (or lack thereof)--just like any other ethnicity. (Just like Soul-and Joey-pointed out.) The only reason that being successful or what-have-you would be considered "turning their back on their heritage" is by those who are Jealous of said successful individual. If being successful is "turning your back on your heritage," then why would you want to go by that? Why would you want to be destined to be Unsuccessful? That seems to be a rather undesireable life if you ask me... And let’s NOT bring Osama-i mean, OBAMA-into this, shall we... >_< That is already another topic in Debate.

User	Blue Monk | 2008-02-28 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Watch for a major change of attitudes if Barak Obama gets into the White House. A seemingly "Black" man with a Muslim name? Welcome to a whole new deal and don’t look for many people to play the "race card" thereafter. With Obama even having gone this far, most such excuses are getting pretty thin now days.

User	insphered soul | 2008-02-28 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Mae, while I do agree with what you have to say, think about how much worse they’d be if they weren’t allowed to stay in America after slavery was abolished. Look at today world. Have you watched Judge Joe Brown lately? He was a thug growing up, the cards were stacked against him, but he put forth the effort, and now he’s a kickass judge on t.v. So I ask you, what’s to stop every other black person in america from doing something along the same lines? And no, I’m not saying that they are all thugs, I’m saying that all of them can bring themselves out of the ’underclass’ (as Joey calls it) if they just try.

User	mae | 2008-02-28 |
Subject	untitled
Message	I hope you’re wrong, joey, but I’m not prepared to say either way. You are correct that other immigrant groups are working to move forward. Part of the problem is that many blacks see success as living white. If a person is successful in business, obtains an education and behaves or dresses in a mainstreaam successful way, they are accused of turning their back on their heritage. That’s a purely self-defeating attitude. mae

User	joeyalphabet | 2008-02-27 |
Subject	untitled
Message	My fear is that it’s too late, and that blacks may have already doomed themselves to be a permanent underclass. Is the deck stacked against poor blacks? Yes, it is, but if they don’t do it themselves no one’s going to do it for them. It’s just the way our society works. I see Latinos moving forward as a group. They’re doing it on their own. More blacks need to start getting that mentality too.

User	mae | 2008-02-26 |
Subject	untitled
Message	insephered - I do not believe Mozart was making a racial comment. In fact, I agree with what she says, mae - well, of course you don’t think it was a racist comment. You agree and no one wants to be called a racist. GoKart makes the statement that blacks have been "more than repaid" by being "given" the "equality and freedom" to stay here. The fact is, blacks have not been repaid for anything and they weren’t "given" equality and freedom. It is a current trend in this country to track your family history. For some people, it’s a very important part of their lives. I can trace my family’s heritage back to the 1400’s in Ireland, Scotland and England. How many black families can do that? Their ancestors were wrested from their homes, families and countries, against their will, and transported to a foreign country. Their own names and heritages were stolen from them. If they were given a surname, it was that of their "owner". If they married and had children they were often subjected to further destruction of their family so that their children still would not know who they were. They were subjected to physical abuse, sometimes torture, sometimes murder. None of this is news to anyone in the United States or other countries that practiced slavery. Yet you think they’ve been repaid. After slavery was abolished, blacks were prevented from voting, from getting jobs, from obtaining an education, from anything that a white person wanted to prevent them from doing. Yet you say they were given "freedom and equality" to remain in this country. They were not given freedom and they were not given equality. They were handed further discrimination and the effects of the upheaval their families suffered centuries ago continues to plague the black community today. Joey, I agree with your comments, but I also think that the mindset that many blacks seem to have is a direct result of the destruction of their communities and lifestyle. Had they not had their lives stolen from them, the ancestors of today’s black Americans would have lived in their communities as they had for centuries, achieving and growing as anyone in a stable situation does. Their achievements and growth would have continued to today’s blacks, either in Africa or here if they emigrated. But that was interrupted, viciously, and held away from them even after slavery was abolished. It has been less than half a century that blacks in the United States have had unfettered freedom, though not equality. That is not long enough for an entire society to recover. It is barely more than a generation. I don’t think we’ll see an attitude of self-reliance for another 50 years - though that is just my opinion. mae

User	insphered soul | 2008-02-26 |
Subject	untitled
Message	Mae, I do not believe Mozart was making a racial comment. What she could possibly be saying is that back in the days of slavery, the blacks were lucky to have not been shipped back to Africa after slavery was abolished. Because, well, they didn’t have any use to the whites when you think about it from a white slave owners view. It’s not racists and neither is Mozart. And I’m not sure why you were ranting about the skin color = use thing. You kinda lost me there. I didn’t get anything out of what Mozart said that hinted towards just that their skin was a different color. It was the people themselves, the people that weren’t from America to begin with. In fact, I agree with what she says, on the non racist level. Also Mae, you misunderstand me on the sorry thing. I would apologize for it as well, but then I agree with Joey: Who can we apologize to?

User	joeyalphabet | 2008-02-26 |
Subject	untitled
Message	There’s no reason to apologize for slavery. No one alive today experienced it, and almost everyone would consider it a tragic historical wrong. Living in a poor city, I see a certain percentage of black people (not all – a percentage) who want any excuse not to do something for themselves. While there has been severe discrimination in the past, you can’t keep expecting things to be handed to you forever either, and that’s what I see some blacks doing. I know many black people who are hard working, decent human beings who have worked hard for what they’ve achieved. I also see a lot who expect others to do everything for them. At some point it has to be up to blacks to help themselves on a larger scale. Other minority groups (Vietnamese, Latinos) have done it.