| User | tZar |
| Topic | Whats a good poem? |
| Message | Okay, you have been venting, now it is my turn.
It seems that the most eloquent description of molestation in ones childhood will surely be deemed the best poem of the site. What is poetry coming to?? I see that 80% going on 90% of the ‘poems’ are about some personal feeling, that someone had, and the only critique he wants, is someone telling him that “I can relate, and you need a comma in the second line”. There is nothing wrong in correcting grammar or typos (sic!), I appreciate that myself, as it just makes pieces look sloppy when they sneak in. The problem is that the need to improve on the description of a lost loved one, is non existent – it is just something that needs to be say, and when it is said, all comments besides: ‘oh, I feel so sorry for you’, ‘I can so relate’ etc. are irrelevant, as the motivation of the write is venting in some degree. If I tell a friend that I am depressed my child died, I am not looking for him to say: “well, if you said ‘complete and utterly devastated’ instead of depressed, it would make more of an impact.” Then I reed comments on my own pieces, and many tells how they ‘get the feeling in the poem’, ‘nice emotions’ or ‘you must be more emotional’ etc. I sit back a little puzzled, as I am always very composed and sober when I write; I scribble a lot and note down observations, but post them without a complete and long work through, I do not. In other words: I am not an emotional poet, if a poet at all. The problem I have when I look through poetry, is finding the ones that are on the same page as myself, more or less. I, to say it harshly, could not care less about some lost boyfriend (sorry girls, but you tend to dominate this theme) or how it felt when some ones uncle was touching a child crutch. To me these kind of writings is more therapy then poetry, and as of poetic quality that reaches beyond the writers friends, I think it has none. Well, the point is that we might need a ‘vent section’ to place all these writings or something linked to our profiles that indicate our motivation to write. I do not say that poems that have their base in an experience, is worth nothing. I think people themselves know when they are trying to say/point at something more, and when they just need to put an experience into words, to deal with it. The problem is that there is no way of knowing. I have suggested that we get a page to write our motivations towards writing poetry; why we write, which philosophical stand we have or simply just what we want with our poetry, that be venting, or giving new aspects to things or get people to reflect on something. In remarks to some threads which I have seen on this forum, I can see that many are talking about what they get out of commenting on others works, or comments received. I truly believe that a way of knowing what people wants with there poetry, can greatly improve the comments and thereby the standard of the writings. At the very least I must send out an appeal for people to clearly state something of this nature in the description of the poem. I needed to get that of my chest. -tZar |
|| Replies ||
| User | UnderINK | 2007-05-09 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | Technically, even sad emotional poetry is poetry. Poetry is therepy in a way, no matter the subject you write about. I write to ease the swarm of ideas in my head, emotional or not. To me it’s a therepy for restless thoughts. I don’t know, I agree and disagree. Sucking or not sucking is subjective. |
| User | NoMartyr | 2007-05-07 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | I write poems, I’m spiritual and don’t suck. |
| User | UnderINK | 2007-04-05 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | At least you get comments! Hehe. I don’t really care what people say about my poetry. I don’t write about teenage angsty crap and don’t really pay attention to any poetry that does. I use emotion -and- logic, however, to express my point. Some don’t fit into either of those catagories. Really, I only deem by comments who is really a poet and who is simply someone looking to vent some steam, since my poetry is very analytical and often even fantasy-related, something that requires one to think. That’s my only real quirk with comments; most people don’t think. |
| User | pattopping | 2007-02-23 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | I can’t really disagree more, to be honest. I think composed writing is necessy, probably mainly in later drafts when trying sift through the poem, but I think there has to be real emotion in Art or else you will not be able to communicate what you want.
Creating art, poetry, a painting, a story, a play, a movie, these are all ways to stand up and say, I have something to say. Art is the expression, imitation to borrow a cliche, of life. An artist communicates something beautiful, horrifying, depressing, exciting, that has implications about how they view life at the moment or even in their life. So, if you write about a bad break up, you’re trying to harness what that means, what that is, you put it out there and see if it is accessible. And one of the best feelings, and most comforting things about art is that through a physical medium it connects two people by feelings. You cannot say feelings are bade simply because they are common; you cannot say certain feelings are bad simply because you don’t necessarily know what that is like or cannot relate to it. If a work is poorly veiled, poorly composed, unoriginal that is something you can attack, but there are truly spectacular works of art that borrow from common feelings such as heart break, loneliness, etc. I understand the lack of patience with teenage poetry as by and large it’s a first draft written hasitly after a break up, but I think you need to allow for that in order to foster more mature and skillful writing. |
| User | tZar | 2007-02-21 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message |
Well just to clear up a few points. I do not say that we should not use emotion when writing. I am not a ‘logical’ writer – not even a logical thinker. I just said that I am composed when working on my texts. When distinguishing between good and bad poetry I simply say that good poetry must want more then just tell someone’s personal story, for there own sake. Art-pur-l’art is not bad art, and this falls into another category then what I call ‘venting’ – just to make that clear. If you take a starting point in some intimate experience, this does not disqualify a poem – it is all about what you want with it. What I am saying is that there is a lot of people here, who just want sympathy and a place to let out some emotions – that is fine by me. What I find troublesome is that they post among writers who aspire to give the reader something more. This is not about making an ‘emotional’ section and a ‘logical’ section. This is about making sections for people who really do want to improve on the way the convey there messages, and those who just need a place to get the things out, which they might not have any other place for. There should be room for that – and there are a lot of people who feels attracted to these writings for all different kind of reasons. -tZar |
| User | Logic | 2006-07-04 | |
| Subject | Good Poems? |
| Message | A good poem is something that makes you think like, damn, I wish I wrote that. Or inables you to produce more creative thoghts for yourself. A good poem sparks the mind. If anything thats read doesn’t do this to the majority who read it, then I don’t think its a good writing. But to each his own.. |
| User | wondereric | 2006-07-04 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | If you can write about being molested as a child and still leave room for someone else to interpret something different from it, then I think it is a great writing. Simply saying I got screwed as a kid and I’m really f’d up because of it certainly isn’t poetry... it’s stating facts. So I guess I agree all in all. |
| User | EternitysLyre | 2006-06-29 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | Now now, you’re talking about potentially darkening the angsty (Linkin Park-drenched) experiences of every teen on this site. I wouldn’t suggest it--
what most of their works are in want of tend not to be emotion, or sincerity, but individualism and heart. I mean, there are a million ways to say "I miss and/or hate him" but they tend to just say it as it is, which feels like the beaten-path. I’d read every relationship poem there was out there if they knew how to make it their own. And dude, good poetry should be good first to yourself, then to the rest, not vice versa. |
| User | DavidHirt | 2006-04-25 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | Also, art is not useless. It depends on the use the artist gives it. If you make plates for a living and make them beautiful, you have made useful art. If you have placed efort into showing an idea into a poem, then it is useful for disseminating that idea. No. Not all art is useless. Though I will admit it can be decadent. |
| User | DavidHirt | 2006-04-23 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | So hans, you just defined a good poem in the same post as saying there is no such thing as a good poem. You obviously have a beleif in what makes a poem good. |
| User | HansRik | 2006-04-15 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | There is no such thing as a good poem, for all art is quite useless. Good poetry in this context is that which is aesthetically perfect (excellent imagery, and sonically pleasing). In a more technical context, a good poem is original, it has a coherent and well thought-out structure. Its imagery is not cliched and fits in the poem, and the diction sets out the tone. These are some thoughts. |
| User | MyFinal Letters | 2006-04-12 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | I think you have to aknowledge the idea that there is no clear cut definition of poetry. The fact is that it is an artform and you know what they say about art: It’s whatever the artist says it is.
I can say that if you read enough poetry you start to grow weary of the cliches. The "teen angst" poetry or the "love" poetry in unpracticed hands. But in the end I think that one fact holds true. Not all poetry is for all people. Some people like Vangough while others like Dali while others still like the mall reprints of Thomas Kinkaide (kill me now). But its kind of one of those things where you just focus on the stuff you like and disregard the stuff you don’t. I will tell you one thing though. When a woman does finally rip your heart out and show it to you while it’s still beating, grin, laugh at all the shit you told her in confidence and then run off with your best friend.....well....what can i say ...you will be more forgiving of the teenage angst poem. Sam Bend |
| User | CombiChris66 | 2006-04-12 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | I think that poetry is a very delicate balance between what the writer is trying to say, as well as how the readers percieve it. I do agree with tZar, that there should be a more vivid boundary between poetry and "venting". While a majority of people consider poetry as "the measured language of emotion", there are also widely accepted parameters that clearly define the different types. Just by a simple change like that, a lot of debate could be avoided (not all, since the human condition is particularly partial to drama).
However, just because someone doesnt use a stunning array of a diversified vocabulary, it doesnt make it less than poetry. After all, poetry does have a tight connection with emotion. Poetry was forged by vents of emotion, as over the years people have learned to manipulate the mind with elequent turns of phrase, and elegant imagery. Honestly, I would say a good thing to do would be revise the definitions of the categories, as well as place more emphasis on the descriptions. Ultimately, people do get what they give. The ones who "just want to relate", and work inside a clique, are probably not going to get much better. (i’m not saying that everyone who puts that down are not aspiring writers, but a pattern can be noticed). The rest of us can feel good about the fact that we are thriving for improvement, as well as helping others in the process. |
| User | splifford | 2006-04-12 | |
| Subject | splifford rules |
| Message | if u r the turtle u will beat the rabbit |
| User | rounin | 2006-04-04 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | Of course drama fuels so many people’s lives. (Looks like you included, tZar.) In my experience, people write poetry because something they’re feeling strongly needs to be let out somehow. I won’t say that these tales of molestation are really up there with the poetry that has a lot of effort put into it, because a lot of people out there just want the sympathy and attention. It’s all about them. But I’m not going to support keeping these people from posting what they want, because no one should feel restricted like that on a site like this.
(and what the hell is ’take me with a grain of salt’ anyway?) |
| User | SpartanSteve | 2006-04-03 | |
| Subject | Heres what I think |
| Message | So here’s my point of view. Why are most poems about being molested and depressed anyway? A person can only eat so much tomato soup before they get sick of it. People seem to do more crying and less living these days. People always seem to be, "completely torn apart at the seams" instead of being, "just a little down about school and my girlfriend/ boyfriend, I’ll live, but thanks for asking". I think drama is just the gasoline that powers our little boats these days.
On the other hand, I’ve read maybe 4 or 5 poems ever that I liked, so take me with a grain of salt. Steve |
| User | Amanda Lynn | 2006-03-22 | |
| Subject | untitled |
| Message | Very well explained bitterlily. More often than not its the choice of wording and the way the poet brings them to life. Not the topic. If someone writes a poem about something close to them then yes, they will more than likely get a bigger response then say writing a poem about eating a cheeseburger. Unless someone takes the time to discribe each succulant, mouthwatering bite. Its all in the wording. I, myself couldnt imagine writing over something that isn’t personal. Whether my messed up life, bad relationships or the way a sunset brought my soul to life.
I also agree with WHildkaht. Emotional poetry and logic poetry are to totally seperate writing styles and while people can relate to one its hard to get the same reaction from both types of poetry with one person. THey will say its good. THey will like the wording and the style but when it comes down to it if its not something that moves them, whether emotionally or mentally, it will be liked and forgotten in the same breath it took to review it. Some of these people have been writing for years, some might have started this month, but each deserves respect for haveing the nerver to post it where other people can rip it apart piece by piece and tell you exactly what they think of it. No matter the topic or how often its written about. I think the difference between poetry and a poem is how it touches the reader. Whether anyone else in the world it touched by it. If that reader felt moved by what he read, then he just read some poetry. Whether it was "The love song of J. Alfred Prufrok" , "The Applicant", "THe Raven", or some roses are red poem he found scribbled on a piece of paper. |
| User | bitterlily | 2006-03-21 | |
| Subject | poems v. poetry |
| Message | I think you’re highlighting here the subtle difference between some poems and poetry. (Please ignore the fact that the difference might be purely pedantic and I might have just made it up, but bear with me here.) Poems are what you’ve described here, mostly: they are therapeutic and, mostly, the writer just wants to be told that someone else relates, that the emotion is there. Poetry, on the other hand, can aspire to be great. Poetry can become a thing on its own, a life... it can rise above the original intention given to it by the author and become something more. But for a poem to grow up and become poetry, often the lowly writer needs a little more feedback than "I so relate to that, and you’re missing an apostrophe over there."
--Jasmine |
| User | Whildkaht | 2006-03-20 | |
| Subject | an addition. sorry. |
| Message | I totally agree with the response other than mine. The problem is not a type of poetry, but when the person falls into the same pattern. Eventually all there work sounds the same and it gets monotonous (?sp) to read. |
| User | Whildkaht | 2006-03-20 | |
| Subject | I agree. I disagree. |
| Message | I feel that everyone needs to express themselves. While your opinion is completely valid, so are those who think that emotion is the key to poetry. There should be two different "sections," if you will, for those who go on emotion and for those who go on logic. One group will never appreciate the other. Not fully. Kudos on bringing this up. |